Branding vs. Marketing –
Anne Marie Holder, Spark Strategic Ideas

0:11
And so the speaker series is an opportunity for us to hop on stage and kind of talk about the nuts and bolts of what it’s like to run a business, what are some of the challenges and maybe to present some people for you to work with the small business owners.

0:24
So charting opportunities is that Portis, both advisors is the wealth management firm located here in Charlotte, team of five who works primarily with small business owners and the 10 to 50 million revenue 1 to $5,000,000 profit perspective on wealth management.

0:40
So anyways, with all of those introductions, the best introduction for today is a long term friend of mine, Anne Marie Holder, who I’ve known since 2013 when we were both in a vistage group.

0:54
Anne Marie just came from her vistage group.

0:56
She is still a loyal member.

0:58
I am not, but Emery started, sparked strategic ideas coming out of the 2008 recession, is that right?

1:08
Yeah, beginning of 2008 and has grown that team as well.

1:13
And they do marketing and branding with I guess mostly a Charlotte focus, but some outside of Charlotte as well.

1:21
And they do an awesome job.

1:25
So we’ve we’ve had the fortunate experience of actually working out of the same building with them for the last couple years and to see their minds, they definitely work different than mine and that’s a good thing, I can promise you.

1:39
So anyway, so Anne Marie, thanks so much for taking some time to talk branding and marketing with us today.

1:45
My pleasure.

1:45
Thanks for having me.

1:46
So since we’re talking about the dual concept of branding and marketing, can you take a few minutes and just tell us what the difference is between branding and marketing?

1:59
Sure.

1:59
They get confused a lot.

2:01
We like to joke and say that marketing is like asking someone on a date and branding is the reason they say yes.

2:08
So I think when people hear the term branding, a lot of times they’re thinking, Oh yeah, they have that logo or Oh yeah, I’ve seen those colors.

2:17
But branding is a lot bigger than that.

2:20
We like to say that a brand is a promise and when kept, it keeps a space in your mind.

2:26
And it’s a culmination of a lot more than a logo or the marketing pieces that you see.

2:31
Those all are part of the brand, but it’s also what you heard from somebody about what they used to think when they worked there or their own experience, or maybe if they’ve seen someone within the company being positioned as an expert.

2:46
So all of those different things really make up the sum of the brand.

2:50
When you when something comes to mind, that’s the brand.

2:55
Whereas marketing is all about how do you communicate a message.

2:59
If you’re doing your branding right, you’ve already thought through what that message should be and how you want to put it out there.

3:03
But the messaging side itself, which can be internal marketing, which is sometimes just as important and plays a bigger role even on a lot of the B to B side.

3:13
But you know, the marketing is what is the message we’re communicating and how.

3:16
And so that’s kind of the difference between those two.

3:22
So I guess I was really good at branding and that’s the reason that my wife is with me, right?

3:27
Is that how that works out?

3:28
Yes, it worked well.

3:29
You did good.

3:29
It’s the only thing I did right over the last 20 years.

3:33
So a lot of small businesses here, construction, roofing trades related businesses, right.

3:39
And so when we think about that said, well, why does branding and why does marketing really matter to that space?

3:47
And you would say it does.

3:49
So why does it matter?

3:50
And some of your more traditional trades, I mean, obviously Apple, right, we all think about Apple, they’re going to put their branding and marketing on the Super Bowl.

3:57
But you know, most of these folks around here are not putting their marketing or branding on a Super Bowl ad.

4:02
So what does it matter?

4:05
Well, let me flip the switch a little and put you on the spot.

4:09
So before we talk about the B to B side, can we do a little branding exercise?

4:14
Sure.

4:16
Can somebody come grab the microphone for me?

4:19
But to be clear, I didn’t get questions in advance either.

4:21
So if we were going to talk about Walmart as a person, a little brand personification.

4:29
So not Sam Walton, not necessarily every person that walks in or the employees, but just as a whole brand, all the sum of everything you know about Walmart.

4:40
Would you say it’s a male or a female?

4:44
Oh, man.

4:48
Or non violent?

4:49
Yeah, it’s it’s funny.

4:50
I’m going I’m going white Chevy pickup truck.

4:52
So I’m going mail.

4:54
Is that is that fair?

4:55
Yeah.

4:55
I was going to ask what kind of car they drove.

4:56
So you were I’m going white Chevy pickup truck.

4:58
You were right there.

4:58
How old are they?

5:02
I don’t know mid to late 40s maybe.

5:07
Yeah, somewhere in that rent maybe.

5:08
Yeah.

5:09
And then if they were going to throw a party, are they throwing something fancy?

5:13
Are they throwing something home grown?

5:14
Like, what kind of party would Walmart throw?

5:16
Oh, we’re doing, like a oyster roast and Budweiser, right?

5:19
Yeah.

5:20
Yeah.

5:20
Cheap.

5:21
Yeah.

5:21
Budweiser, oyster roast, crawfish party, anyone?

5:24
Yeah, I’ll go.

5:25
All right, so now we’re gonna switch it up and we’re gonna talk about Target.

5:29
Yeah.

5:30
So is Target a male or a female?

5:32
Definitely a female, Yeah.

5:34
And what kind of car did they drive?

5:37
I don’t know.

5:37
I’m gonna go to Acura MDX.

5:39
Yeah.

5:40
Yep.

5:41
Silver, you’re checking off the list.

5:44
How old are they?

5:45
They.

5:46
I mean, I guess I’d maybe the, the Walmart guy’s probably a little bit older.

5:50
The the the Target person is what, mid 40s to mid 50s?

5:57
And then what kind of party is your target going to throw?

5:59
Old wine and cheese?

6:01
Yeah, no, like no real legitimate food, right.

6:04
I’m going to leave that thing hungry.

6:09
You do know what I’m talking about, right?

6:10
Like you’re going to walk away from that party hungry still?

6:12
Yes.

6:13
And the answers are always very consistent.

6:16
There’s a little bit of leeway on a couple places where I would say the brand is some kind sometimes not as well defined or they’re in a period of change.

6:24
So it’s very normal for us and we do this as part of our strategic brand planning process.

6:28
This is something, it’s a question we ask employees about the company they work for and it’s a company.

6:33
We it’s a question we ask their customers.

6:36
If they were to describe the company that they work with, that’s our client.

6:41
And so it’s very consistent as in we would ask them if, if we were talking for Portis, I would ask your, your team what they think Portis is.

6:52
Is it, is it a male, female, non binary?

6:55
Is it what kind of car do they drive?

6:57
How old are they?

6:58
What kind of party they throw?

6:59
There’s a a list of questions, right, because very important.

7:05
And so you know, it really it makes an impact.

7:10
And so every time Walmart is sometimes Walmart is a male or female, you do get it’s tends to be a little bit older.

7:17
They’re either going to drive a pickup or an old minivan.

7:21
So there’s both of those and it’s always something very informal.

7:25
That’s in terms of the party where it’s going to be like a backyard BBQ.

7:29
Budweiser gets mentioned a lot.

7:31
Cheese Whiz is new.

7:31
I like it.

7:33
But this is, I mean, that’s, you know, it’s just like inviting your buddies over.

7:37
It’s real laid back.

7:37
The kids are yelling in the yard.

7:39
By contrast, Target is way more buttoned up.

7:44
Never had somebody say that Target is a male.

7:48
Often it is 30s to 40s female.

7:50
They are always driving a luxury SUV, so check and they’re going to throw a very Pinteresty party.

7:57
And so it is a wine and cheese, maybe a cocktail, but definitely everything is on theme and on point.

8:07
And so I think that’s the distinction in the brand.

8:11
It’s a lot bigger than what is the Target logo look like or what is the Walmart logo look like.

8:16
If you were to ask someone who had no understanding of what those businesses were, they wouldn’t get all of that connotation.

8:23
So I think that’s where it doesn’t have to be a consumer brand.

8:28
It can be business to business, but what you think about that brand makes a huge impact on who wants to buy, who feels comfortable with you, who feels like they’re a good fit.

8:38
And so I think that’s kind of the basis of how we approach it.

8:41
Thanks for letting me switch everyone.

8:42
Yeah, yeah, no, that’s interesting.

8:43
So as a result of that, you’ve got like my whole series of questions like all, all kilter.

8:49
So I’m going to have to jump around a little bit.

8:53
So you’ve got a process that you all through with clients, right?

9:01
Would you mind kind of talking about that for a few minutes?

9:04
Just again, I’m all out of kilter now.

9:07
So we’re going to wrap up at five O 5 as a result.

9:11
But I’d love to, yeah, if you don’t mind, I’d be awesome.

9:15
We’re a full service, strategic branding and marketing firm.

9:17
So we do advertising, marketing, PR, social, digital, the full gamut.

9:22
I hire people who are experts in what they do and who are much smarter than me to execute those individual pieces.

9:28
What I love is that intersection of business strategy and communications and being able to really help companies understand who they are, who they want to be, whether that’s when they grow up or as they evolve or as they’re already in a mature industry.

9:43
How do they stay relevant?

9:44
So who they are, where they want to be, and then from a communication side, how do we help them chart the path to get there?

9:51
And sometimes there are things we recognize that are blocks to that where they’re surprised when I say, I love that you want to spend money with me, but until you fix this, this and this, you want to make a promise that you can’t deliver on, which means your brand isn’t authentic.

10:05
So I think that’s where it’s really important to take a step back and do the strategic brand planning.

10:11
So about a third of our clients that come in go through a strategic brand planning process.

10:16
It’s my favorite, but we do have those that come and they just want a social media, you know, execution or hey, can you do this brochure, can you make this commercial?

10:25
And we can do those things.

10:27
But I love it when a brand says it is important that we understand who we are and what we do.

10:32
And with respect to the business owners in the room, it’s often not who you think it is.

10:37
So we take them through a three-step process.

10:40
The 1st is internal phase and that’s when I interview your employees.

10:45
It’s interesting.

10:47
It’s also completely anonymous so that no matter how much William might be willing to pay us to do it, I won’t tell him who said what.

10:55
And so some of it is odd questions like the brand personification that makes everybody a little nervous.

11:01
But sometimes I’m also going to a Caitlin or a John and I’m coming in and I’m saying, so if William was to retire tomorrow and he comes in and he says things are going awesome, I’ve decided I want to travel the world and I’m handing the company over to you, John, congratulations.

11:19
So John, what are the first three changes that you’re going to make?

11:22
You don’t have to answer talk later, but it’s a really interesting perspective on what those employees think that the priority should be.

11:34
And a lot of times big problems aren’t recognized by the leadership team.

11:39
They’re somewhere down on the list.

11:40
And other times the leadership team is really focused on these.

11:44
There are three or four down the list or there’s other big things that are causing that.

11:48
That’s just an effect.

11:50
And so we spent a lot of time doing one-on-one interviews, usually with eight to 10 employees.

11:55
It does depend on the geography of the company.

11:58
While most of our clients are based in the Carolinas, a lot of our national companies, and so, you know, talking to their employees confidentially makes a really big impact.

12:08
And that’s something you guys can do too.

12:10
You just need to make sure that whoever’s going to do that research, it doesn’t necessarily have to be through a strategic branding firm, their research companies, that’ll do it.

12:17
You could hire someone individually to do it, but it needs to be anonymous.

12:22
If William asked the question, he’s going to get a different answer than me if I promise not to tell.

12:28
So we do the customer interviews and we also do a brand audit, which means we go through with a clean set of eyes to say who do your, who does your marketing say you are?

12:39
And especially, especially on the B2B side, we see a lot of pieces that like, Oh yeah, that that brochure is relevant.

12:46
Just like switch out this last paragraph or oh, Yep, that sales sheet’s good.

12:50
Let’s just can you add this to the end or update that pricing?

12:53
But it might be there for five or seven years and nobody’s taken a step back and gone.

12:57
But this doesn’t represent who we are anymore.

12:59
And so that’s really where I think that brand audit comes in.

13:04
It’s a little difficult.

13:05
It’s the most awkward part.

13:06
I got to be honest because sometimes I have to tell people that their baby is ugly and I’m really nice about it.

13:13
But that’s the job to give an honest third party view so that I can say, look, if I was your CMO, these are the things that you’re doing really well and these are the things that aren’t reflecting who you really are.

13:24
So that’s kind of the internal side.

13:26
From an external side, we go have those same interviews with your customers and really try to understand what they think.

13:32
And we asked them too, we would talk to to one of William’s clients and say, you know, if William said, hey, Tamara, you’re in charge of Portis, what would you do next?

13:42
What are the first three things you would do?

13:44
And so it gives us a really good perspective to understand what they think the priorities are and from the outside in, what is their perception of the company, what they’re doing well and where there’s a missed opportunities.

13:55
And then we also do a competitive analysis.

13:59
Then we get the whole leadership team in a room and we spend a very awkward two days talking them through this.

14:06
And now you really get to who they are because it’s not what they think when they walk in the room.

14:11
And we’ll ask them the questions 1st and then we’ll present in terms of themes and give direct quotes because as much as I’d love to think it matters what I think, it’s not about me, it’s about your employees, if it’s about your customers and it’s not always about you.

14:25
And so we’re able to really help talk them through that process.

14:29
And based off of that, then we do a deep dive into, well, let’s talk about now that you understand that, what are the values that come through?

14:37
What are your true authentic core values that are being lived out day in and day out?

14:43
A lot of times companies have those.

14:44
So it may be refining and it may be that that worked great when your granddad started the company 25 years ago, but today is a new day.

14:55
And so we work on the values, the mission.

14:57
If it’s a nonprofit sometimes or some companies also prefer to have a big vision.

15:02
Don’t let the terminology trip you up.

15:05
We do a SWOT analysis.

15:07
It’s done all the time at leadership, very different when you’ve just heard from your employees and your customers what they think.

15:14
And then we can talk about, well, now what’s the plan moving forward?

15:17
So with that as a basis, it makes our marketing that much more effective because I mean, we feel like we’re part of the company we’re in.

15:25
We, we have dug deep.

15:27
So it allows us to kind of go, here’s here’s who you thought you were, but here’s who you are.

15:32
Now let’s talk about where you want to go.

15:33
And from a marketing standpoint, how do we get you there?

15:38
Crazy depth.

15:40
So we’ll go back to How I Met you.

15:43
I met you in 2013, a Vistage, right?

15:45
So you’ve been a Vistage member for 13 years.

15:48
How much?

15:49
And that comes with a lot of like monthly listening to other business owners talk about their successes and their failures and their challenges.

15:57
How much of your professional development within Vistage has altered and changed the way you do thing from a marketing, branding perspective with your business owners?

16:11
I think for me, the two biggest things that Vistage did, one is it got me comfortable with being uncomfortable.

16:18
And that probably comes partially from my Vistage chair, Kurt Graves, who thrives in that.

16:23
And he asked the questions you really hope he doesn’t.

16:26
And so, well, I’m a good tap dancer.

16:30
He knows how to push the the buttons in the places that you’re like, oh, I hope you don’t bring up this topic.

16:37
And so I think that’s been a big piece that’s helped push me and also has given me the courage to sometimes ask those questions to my client and be able to maybe in a very diplomatic way, be able to address some of their blind spots.

16:53
How those difficult questions, how much do they really help shape and drive that that brand personality that comes through at the end of the work?

17:06
I mean, is that work?

17:07
I mean, is the, the difficult is where it comes through, right?

17:09
Is where it comes to light a a lot.

17:11
It comes through in the results.

17:13
I think, you know, people here I run an ad agency and they’re like, oh, Mad Men, you guys like throw stuff up on the board and see what sticks.

17:19
And it’s, you know, they think we just sit around all day and eat bonbons and talk about great ideas.

17:26
Sounds great.

17:27
I want that job, but when you ask the really hard questions, it’s not smoke and mirrors.

17:34
It’s what gets you to the truth of, of who a company authentically is.

17:40
And that’s why I love that process because it brings out that that deep, like what’s really at the heart of what you do, because it’s a lot bigger than whatever industry you’re in.

17:50
So I think for when, when you’re talking about how do you use it, it’s it, it keeps going back to that.

17:59
So asking those uncomfortable questions, it makes you understand better how they want to be perceived where they’re insecure about it.

18:09
Usually there’s some other issues that are causing that.

18:12
So you just want to you want to push in here out of a new business meeting on Monday and I was presenting at the end, the client stopped me and she said, can I just tell you thank you?

18:24
She said, I’ve been meeting with marketing agencies.

18:26
This is my third presentation in the last week.

18:28
She said, you’re the first one.

18:30
I feel like listened to what I had to say.

18:33
I mean, the bar is low.

18:36
And so I think people have this, you know, yes, I can make you a pretty ad.

18:41
I can make it funny, but it doesn’t really matter if it doesn’t work.

18:46
And for it to work, you really have to understand who they are and what they want to accomplish.

18:51
Research plays a big hand in that too, not just the the strategic greening process, but you know, the more you can, the deeper you can dive, the more impact you can make.

19:02
Great answer.

19:03
So we live in Charlotte, right?

19:04
This is Charlotte, NC, great city happens to be the Charlotte’s growing at a fairly rapid pace, right?

19:09
So there’s a decent chance that if I’ve got a business in the Charlotte area and it’s in the trades that I’m also growing at a decent clip, right?

19:19
So I’m growing 203040, maybe even 50% a year, right?

19:23
So I’ve got a website.

19:25
Clearly, if I’m growing that fast, I’ve got new clients.

19:28
So why bother, right?

19:30
Like why bother doing branding and marketing work when things are going that well, especially in the trades when you’re talking on the B2B side?

19:41
Absolutely the website needs to be done and needs to be updated, but most of the time I would suspect and a lot of the businesses we’re talking about, it’s a smaller industry like people have heard of you or it’s a referral or it’s because you’re the go to guy for this specific thing.

19:58
So that website tends to now be there more for validation.

20:02
It’s that that somebody’s referred you to them.

20:05
And so they just want to make sure like Yep, they’re credible or their case studies.

20:10
On the B2B side, a lot of time is.

20:11
It also opens the door to expert positioning because you can talk about the things you’re good at.

20:19
In a way that comes across as informative.

20:22
So, you know, holding seminars like these for you guys, you’re bringing other experts to the table to be able to talk.

20:27
It brings value when you put out your wind vein, right?

20:35
The wind vein.

20:36
When you put out your Wind Vein newsletter, she reads it, yes.

20:40
You know, it’s saying like, look, here’s what’s going on in the economy.

20:42
These are relevant topics so that you feel validated that, Yep, William’s my guy.

20:48
He’s who I go to and he really is.

20:50
But you know, he’s who I go to for financial advice and for financial planning and wealth management because I trust him because he’s the expert.

20:57
So I think that comes into play a lot.

21:00
Social media is certainly a big thing today.

21:03
LinkedIn plays a big role in the expert positioning side.

21:07
We get a lot of questions about Facebook and Instagram.

21:09
For the B2B side, it has its role.

21:12
It also depends on how you want to utilize it and the size of the company.

21:16
And there’s a lot of factors on how much and why, but it also depends on the goals of the company.

21:23
So in trades, a lot we see it as a recruitment tool.

21:27
And so I think a lot of times when you think about your marketing tools, you’re not just marketing for customers, you’re marketing for employees.

21:34
And so that’s another piece.

21:35
And it’s not necessarily here’s our list of benefits or hey, we did a team building, look at US culture, you know, it’s how you present yourself, you’re selling yourself all the time.

21:45
So I think all those pieces come into play.

21:48
Hadn’t really thought about it from a like a recruitment perspective, but I mean, people see your company, they see your post, they see your website and it’s like a natural attracting thing.

22:00
Like I want to go over for you.

22:01
It’s an interesting point.

22:05
So for those businesses that in in, I mean, again, we’ll pick on Charlotte and that Charlotte marketplace, what’s the best way for them to get started, right?

22:15
I mean, always think about, you know, small business owners, right?

22:18
Like we were a tradesman first.

22:21
We were good at our craft, right?

22:22
We were good at, you know, landscaping or we’re good at electrical or we’re good at plumbing or whatever it is that we’re good at.

22:28
And the next thing we know, we just grew because we were good.

22:32
And then we added another person.

22:33
We added another person.

22:35
And so, and then somebody told me somewhere along the way, I need their website.

22:38
So I’ll throw a website up there.

22:39
And then somebody told me that we need a LinkedIn page.

22:41
So I threw a LinkedIn page up there.

22:43
So they’ve got like this, they’ve got stuff.

22:46
And that’s what they think of when they think of branding.

22:48
They’ve got a logo, they’ve got a website, they’ve got a LinkedIn page, but for whatever reason, they want to attract new employees, they want to sell their business in five years, They want to do all of these different things.

23:01
Where do they start besides calling you, besides calling us?

23:07
Well, I would love to be able to do a strategic brand planning exercise with everybody.

23:12
A lot of those are things that you guys can execute on your own.

23:15
So having some real conversations with some of your employees about what do you think is the biggest impact we have?

23:23
Why do you think people hire us?

23:24
What are the things we’re doing best?

23:26
Where are areas of weakness?

23:28
What do we need to change today so we can double in size in five years?

23:32
You know, asking those kinds of questions and have the same questions with your customers.

23:37
You you guys can do that.

23:38
It is easier on the employee side for some of the sensitive ones for that to be a third party, but just ask the question so they know you care and you can go through it with that in mind.

23:49
Once you or your leadership team has determined like OK, this like we can own this space.

23:54
We want to be known as the guys that do this or the market leader in this, or yes, we do electrical services or we do general contracting or we’re a great accounting firm.

24:08
But man are we great at blank like you guys are great at business owners specifically.

24:12
You understand their mindset.

24:13
You can do wealth management for a lot of different people, but man, they know that thing.

24:19
And then go back and review your own materials.

24:21
If you looked with a fresh eye or asked somebody and go, if you read through this and you didn’t know me, what would you think about our company?

24:29
What would you think our strengths are?

24:31
What would you think our weaknesses are?

24:32
Why wouldn’t you hire US?

24:35
One of the things about being in advertising is, you know, like you don’t mean to, but you just critique things all the time.

24:42
TV is less enjoyable for me if I’m watching commercials.

24:45
You start to like pick things apart.

24:48
But sometimes you’ll see like a billboard and you’ll be like, but they didn’t have the right information or I can’t see what logo that is.

24:56
Or that’s great.

24:57
They put the logo up there, but they didn’t put the name of the company.

25:00
And you’ve got, you know, 100 and plus new people moving to Charlotte every day and you’re inviting them nowhere.

25:06
So trying to look with a fresh perspective and then evaluating the pieces that you have and ask your team what’s working for you, what’s not, what do you hear back the most?

25:17
The nice thing about digital is that it’s also very trackable, and so you do need things with a personal touch.

25:23
But when I can sit there and tell you, this is how many people looked at your ad, this is how many of them went into your website, This is how much time they spent there.

25:31
This is where they spent their time.

25:34
You don’t need these pages.

25:36
This page needs more stuff.

25:37
Oh, they love case studies.

25:38
Hey, you should reach out.

25:40
Sometimes it gets really creepy as a mom, how much we can learn about you.

25:44
But it can be used for good and not evil as well.

25:47
Yeah, I saw an article, I think it was the last week or two weeks ago and one of the North Carolina publications, I can’t remember which one it was just talking about.

25:58
It was in the low to mid 70s of business owners in the state of North Carolina are looking to sell their business in the next 5 to 10 years.

26:07
So I mean, it was substantially large number, right.

26:10
Like people want to sell, but so when we think about that, like there’s one thing like if I’m, you know, just a young person like me, not so young anymore, but that just wants to grow their business, that’s one thing from a branding perspective.

26:28
But if I’m thinking this doesn’t really matter to me, I’m going to sell my business in the next three to five years.

26:33
I don’t need to worry about that.

26:35
You would say yes or no?

26:37
I would say if you’re basing it on a multiple, you’re going to want that base number to be as high as possible.

26:43
So that’s where you’re actually putting the money into the sales and marketing so that you’re selling something larger and multiplying it.

26:50
So you’d even see, I mean, it’s almost the same thing, right?

26:53
It becomes not now, not already.

26:55
Not only are you branding to employees and future clients, you’re creating a brand and an image that’s attracting future acquirers.

27:03
So they see and they say that’s the type of company that we want to own.

27:08
So that’s where it can be even more powerful for that business owner.

27:12
Well, as you guys know, it’s not always just about the numbers, right?

27:15
So that brand, that goodwill, your reputation, what they think of your people, that’s what they’re buying.

27:22
So it really does play a bit a big role and it takes time.

27:25
So it’s something when, like when Martin was at your speaker speaker series and talking about, you know, you’re planning succession three to five years out at a minimum.

27:36
These are the things that you want to invest in so you can grow it to be able to flip it and and also make sure that they’re a good cultural fit too, so that you’re also putting out the right message.

27:45
If you built something that’s not a lifestyle business, it’s a legacy that’s your like Sparks my baby 18 years.

27:53
And so when you think about, you know, who’s going to adopt my child, you want to make sure that their brand and their reputation fits with what you’ve built.

28:04
Yeah.

28:04
And if you don’t pour into the upfront work, then there’s a mixed message on who you are.

28:09
And then therefore, you can end up with a person that’s not the right fit for your baby after all.

28:17
So on the.

28:18
So we go through branding, We can do a brand audit.

28:22
We do all of those different things.

28:24
Small businesses, again, we go back.

28:26
We’re not Apple, right?

28:27
We don’t have an unlimited budget.

28:29
How do you go through the process of finding out what are the right ways to turn that branding message now into an advertising marketing message?

28:38
Like how does how does the small business owner need to think about that?

28:41
Is it, is it Instagram’s always the best place to go?

28:44
Is it Linkedin’s always the best place to go?

28:45
Is it TikTok?

28:46
Because everybody loves TikTok, right?

28:49
Like, but how do you help?

28:50
Or how do people determine where their clients or what they should be doing?

28:54
Or gosh, this isn’t about, it goes back to, it’s not about attracting clients because I don’t need it.

29:01
I’m trying to attract, you know, just the employees, right.

29:04
So how do you mark it?

29:05
How do you do that?

29:07
Yeah, it’s tough.

29:08
It’s tough because it’s not a, a magic bullet.

29:12
It really is a combination, which is part of why I love the idea of being able to do an integrated program, right.

29:19
And that’s, that’s why we’re not so niche that we just, we do commercials and we, we do those.

29:23
Those are fun, or we’re not just a digital firm, but you can make the whole greater than the sum of its parts.

29:29
And so I think when you’re a small business owner, that’s where you want to talk about how do we squeeze every drop of value that we can out of what we take the time to create.

29:38
So what are the most important messages if we’re going to write an article that showcases your expertise?

29:45
Amazing.

29:45
Can we pull out some quotes and be able to put that into a number of different clips that we can use on our social media?

29:53
Can that be an article that goes on LinkedIn?

29:54
Can we send that out in our newsletter, which would then, you know, tease them a little bit with that opening paragraph or two and they click through to be able to read more on the website.

30:04
Is there a way for them to then follow it up or read more case studies that are applicable to it?

30:09
Does that lead to speaking opportunities?

30:10
So it’s just if you’re going to take the time to do something, it’s tough as a business owner.

30:14
We’re always our the Cobblers child.

30:16
We don’t always do a great job of marketing our own business because we’re so busy marketing for everybody else.

30:21
So I understand it’s hard to take that time, but it’s leveraging what you do have the time to create.

30:27
That could be somebody in your company who is a really strong writer or really is an expert in this area.

30:34
So how can we make the most out of out of their skill set?

30:37
It doesn’t always have to be an agency or starting with a massive budget.

30:42
It’s really about that creating value.

30:45
But TikTok takes a lot of time and budget.

30:47
So it we love the TikTok world that that tends to fall very far down the list unless you’re really heavy consumer brand with young a lot of a lot of young people you’re trying to engage with.

31:04
That’s a good point.

31:04
Nobody wants to be able to TikTok anyways.

31:07
But anyways, the I’ll go back and like, how do you, we can’t do an in house, right?

31:20
So we’re growing, we’ve got margin, we’re willing to spend fit matters, right.

31:27
And so how, how would you recommend somebody go through the process of finding the right fit to help them deliver on their message, deliver on their, on their promise?

31:41
I think a lot of it comes down when you’re trying to figure out how do you approach a a marketing firm.

31:48
It’s a matter of just being really transparent and you want a team that’s not going to hand you a cookie cutter.

31:54
I think that’s a pitfall.

31:56
A lot of times we fall into an industry.

31:58
So if you’re a dentist, you run a series of dentist offices, Cool.

32:04
There’s companies out there that do lots of of dentists and so we can just replace their logo with your logo, but it’s not authentically you.

32:14
And so I think it’s about finding somebody that is going to listen.

32:18
It’s somebody that’s going to stand shoulder to shoulder with you that’s going to explain but not talk down because you know your business better than anybody else.

32:26
So it’s somebody that’s going to stand shoulder to shoulder with you and somebody that’s not going to just, you know, if you sell, what’s the expression about Everything’s nail.

32:41
If I’m messing it up, everything’s in, everything’s nailed.

32:44
If you have a hammer, everything’s a hammer or everything, something like that.

32:46
We screwed that one up pretty well for hammers and nails out there.

32:48
You might see in the hammer or nail anybody non hardware.

32:51
But I would tell you, you know, it’s one of those things it’s it’s making sure it’s not a cookie cutter approach that you’ve got somebody that is going to understand.

33:00
And every agency is different.

33:03
So I would ask them to what do they look for in a client?

33:05
That can be really telling.

33:07
We’ve got some a very clear cut list of things we look for and a few that we absolutely don’t.

33:14
We don’t accept jerks.

33:15
We use a different term internally.

33:17
But anyways, that’s number first and foremost, right?

33:20
So we write that into our new business proposals.

33:22
It technically says no meanies, but I read it out loud and explain that means no jerk holes because the money just isn’t worth it.

33:30
I use that one Monday too.

33:31
I love the fact that you said meanies.

33:34
ROI, right?

33:35
We’re in a return dripping world.

33:38
How?

33:40
Because we could spend money forever and we could try to justify and say, oh, but look how pretty the thing looks on LinkedIn or somebody laughed at it or we got 52 likes or whatever it was, right?

33:50
Like, so how do we measure ROI on our branding and our marketing efforts over do we measure over two months?

33:58
Do we measure over 2 years?

34:00
And then, and then how do we know that we should change directions or whatever other?

34:04
How do you experiment with that stuff?

34:06
I think a lot of it just does come back to that value piece, you know, can you create one thing and use use it across a number of different platforms.

34:16
The nice thing about digital is that it is so trackable.

34:19
So that’s always nice.

34:21
But really thinking through when you’re going to do a marketing piece or invest in a marketing tool, What is it?

34:29
What really goes into that?

34:30
Because it’s not just, oh, we have X budget, it’s how much of the employees time is going to be spent creating this, how many rounds, how much of a headache is it for a group of a really small group?

34:44
And is that OK?

34:45
Because that’s our niche audience and there’s only so many decision makers or it’s only going to hit a few people.

34:53
And so I think it’s, it’s really just thinking through what are those pieces?

34:57
The digital side is way easier to manage, but if someone walks into your location, they’re very unlikely to say, oh, I came because of that billboard.

35:07
As a matter of fact, most of the time when one will say, oh, where, you know, where did you hear about us?

35:13
They’ll go, oh, TV or on the radio and they’ll say that when no campaign is running, we’re just used to saying it and it feels safe and it feels big.

35:22
So, you know, I think it’s really about thinking through the amount of value and return you’re going to get for the effort you put in and eventually building those integrated programs.

35:32
And then so to build the integrated programs, do we test in different platforms, right?

35:39
Do we test like on LinkedIn?

35:41
Do we test on like Instagram?

35:43
And then do, do we test on the, the I-77 billboard because everybody loves being on I-77.

35:48
And then we started to ask clients where they see us, although there’s a trap there too, because most of the time it’s like getting on a, a line up, right?

35:57
And nobody actually remembers what you look like.

35:59
So is it that complexity?

36:02
Do we run different programs at different time and measure the return or how, how do we do it?

36:07
I think there’s too many factors in it to go, hey, we’re going to turn this faucet on for two months and then this one on for two months and we’ll see, we’ll see which one sales increase in, right.

36:17
Because you’ve got seasonality, you’ve got other aspects that are going to make a difference and it all compounds over time.

36:23
So we really do like running the integrated programs, really looking at how can you make the most out of your budget and out of your time and your investment get the most ROI.

36:33
And then there is a place to start to test an experiment kind of once you’ve got that base level going.

36:39
We do love to ask where clients heard about us and, and sometimes that’s a referral because that guy saw your, you know, your billboard or is following you on LinkedIn or saw that you were talking about something on Facebook.

36:55
So it, it really does all tie together.

36:58
But it is nice when you are able to experiment a little bit once you’ve kind of got that base program installed.

37:04
But that goes all the way back to the beginning of our conversation where that brand audit really helps out.

37:08
Because during that brand audit, when we’re interviewing the employees and we’re interviewing on the external side and we’re understanding where those people are in grabbing content from what they’re reading, what they’re paying attention to, where they see stuff that starts to drive your success of, oh, OK, well, this is where they’re hanging out at.

37:26
By the way, you should be hanging out there with your, with your stuff too.

37:31
And it it also when you’re thinking about the return, one of my favorite direct mail pieces we ever did was a really expensive direct mail piece.

37:39
And each piece ended up costing about $50.00.

37:42
So I mean, it was a, you know, it was a hefty, if it was a hefty piece, but my client was a consultant in the textile rental services industry and when they sold a piece of business, it was hundreds of thousands of dollars.

37:55
So for us to target 25 or 50 CE OS, get them to open this box and get interested enough that they got multiple calls, he’d spend that all day.

38:06
So, you know, I think it’s also evaluating what the return is going to be versus that investment.

38:13
Some places make more sense than others.

38:16
Can you talk about a specific situation if I ask you?

38:19
Are you OK?

38:19
Depends on what it is.

38:22
The yam.

38:23
Yes.

38:24
Can you talk about that?

38:25
Just this is my pet project.

38:27
Yeah, this.

38:28
So just talk.

38:29
It’s such a great story and it just captures the essence of what branding and marketing is up being right?

38:35
Sure.

38:36
So this is one of my favorite projects for the last year.

38:40
We have a client, McCall Farms, who does amazing things.

38:45
They have 9 different consumer brands.

38:47
You wouldn’t know the name McCall Farms, but if you walk down the vegetable aisle after you passed Green Giant and Del Monte, a lot of those brands are theirs.

38:57
So they have Glory Foods, Margaret Holmes, Bruce’s yams, Popeyes, spinach, veg, all the list goes on.

39:05
And so as we approach the holiday season, there’s a push for the yams.

39:10
If you follow any of those Facebook pages also, we’re we’re managing those along with my shout out to Peanut Patch.

39:17
If those of you in South Carolina and parts of North Carolina may have seen a Super Bowl commercial that ran for Peanut Patch, that was ours as well.

39:25
But we wanted to get people interested, particularly some social influencers.

39:30
But really I just want the client to want to do this on a much bigger scale next year.

39:35
And that was really my impetus.

39:37
So I said if he wouldn’t pay for it, I would.

39:40
But I don’t know if you know, you can do this, but you can mail a yam.

39:45
So literally, we had influencers who went out to their mailbox and inside, not in a box, not shrink wraps, just a yam.

39:55
They were engraved with their address, the Bruce’s Bruce’s Yams logo.

40:03
And then in my kitchen, this will be different when we scale.

40:08
I had drilled a hole into the yam, inserted a test tube, wrapped three different pieces of paper around a ribbon that was inserted in the test tube.

40:19
The top went on.

40:21
And so all you had to do was pull the ribbon and outcome.

40:24
A recipe for candied yams, a coupon for Bruce’s candied yams, and a note that talks about why our way is easier and we’d love to connect and how to connect with us on social, which we also manage for them.

40:38
And so we were able to start some really interesting communications because a yam showed up in their mailbox isn’t awesome again.

40:48
So we work in the same building.

40:49
So we saw the game thing roll out.

40:51
I think it’s a fantastic creative story, right?

40:53
Like when was the last time you open up a mailbox and out of yam?

40:57
I mean, you’re going to pay attention to what’s what’s there, right?

41:00
So anyway, so we’re coming up on into time and we’ve kind of realized that 45 minutes in today’s day and age in the Sports Center world, that 45 minutes is is kind of a magic time for y’all to be sat in a seat.

41:15
But we also wanted to open up for question and answer.

41:19
So I’ve had my chance to go through my questions, even if Anne Marie made me jump around.

41:23
So any questions out there from the lady that we targeted with the target conversation?

41:34
Sure, yes.

41:36
So the question was how long have I been in marketing and how did I get into it?

41:41
I originally thought I wanted to be an elementary school teacher.

41:46
I’ve always been I came from a family of educators, but more importantly, creative people.

41:52
Side note, my mom mailed me a potato when I was in college and that is how the yams idea happened.

41:59
I and I went to college for education and realized that my ideas about building things around kids was changing and the world of education was changing.

42:13
And I fell into this amazing program that was called Integrated Marketing Communication, and it was half business and half mass communication with an emphasis on advertising and marketing.

42:24
And I loved it.

42:25
So I did a number of internships during school and then started working for an ad agency my senior year in college.

42:31
So I worked for quarter Phillips was quarter Phillips Wilson back in the day in the early 2 homes.

42:37
And and so I drive up after school as a senior and ended up getting a full time job there.

42:45
Went on to work for Leffler, Ketchum, Mountjoy.

42:48
Because they all sound like law firms and none of them exist anymore.

42:53
But I worked at LKMI was running their largest account, which was Georgia Pacific Building Products.

42:57
So I do understand that world.

42:59
If you’d like to talk for an hour or two about your towel floor underlayment or your gypsum boards or platinum plywood.

43:07
So I ran that account and over three years that went from a $3,000,000 account to a $13 million accounts and we are planning on a $20 million year.

43:17
I started grad school, realized that I was really good at this marketing stuff, but didn’t always understand the strategy behind why things were happening both at the agency and on the client side.

43:26
So went back to get an MBA at Chapel Hill, did that on the weekends and ran a small agency for a year before jumping out and starting Spark.

43:37
And 18 years later, here we are.

43:39
So now we function like a 2025% agency.

43:43
Smaller number in house full time, but a great group of people to work with everyday.

43:48
Thank you.

43:49
Fantastic is the best part.

43:53
Don’t tell the employees it’s it’s I mainly go into work to see William and the team there.

44:09
Thanks for taking the time to do this.

44:11
So would you say that Walmart is missing the mark in how they are advertising and marketing and targeting their quote UN quote target audience?

44:22
And what would you advise them to do differently?

44:24
Which I’m sure that’s a loaded question, but I’m just interested to hear.

44:28
Please grab your jammies and prepare.

44:30
I think where Walmart is, is trying to really understand how to evolve their identity.

44:40
And so that’s where it’s been interesting, you know, asking the same questions for the last probably 15 years, we’ve been doing the strategic brand planning program.

44:49
And so it used to be very consistent answers.

44:52
And so now it might be male, it might be female and probably skews older, but some people see it in their 30s and some of it is just understanding the question.

45:00
But I think for them, it’s really honing.

45:03
And do they just want to be low cost?

45:06
Is that is, is that the only value they bring?

45:09
And that’s one way to present themselves.

45:10
Are you trying to be too much to too many?

45:13
And so I, I think that’s where they have a little bit of work to do.

45:16
I mean, they’re, they’re growing, they’re doing great things.

45:20
But I think in terms of how they present themselves, some clarity would be helpful.

45:31
Sure.

45:38
Oh, you did put me in the hot seat.

45:47
I am not crisis communications is another topic.

45:52
And we have managed some really hard things, you know, through the years.

45:57
The worst one was I had a client, we did their public relations and one employee murdered another.

46:02
So I mean, I’ve, I have sat in that hot seat.

46:05
It is awful and we love the media we work with.

46:09
We have a public relations team so we work with the media and they are our friends until they are not and it is a really hard switch.

46:19
I think some of the comments that were made out of the gate were maybe meant well but could have used a little professional advice and it’s going to be really difficult for them to come back from.

46:33
I don’t think it’s impossible, but I I think because the marriage was involved, not that that makes her responsible at all, but there’s an automatic perception there that those two are so closely tied that as long as that ownership is there, no matter what the name is, it’s going to be really difficult to rescan.

47:00
Yeah, it’s going to be tough without a ownership change.

47:04
And that’s where, if I can go back, when you talk about a brand, even if their sales numbers had not changed, when the reputation does, it has a huge impact on what that business is worth.

47:15
So it’s going to, I don’t know that the rebrand will be successful and I hate it for the employees and the industry and a lot of good people who are involved that didn’t have anything to do with the situation hit me.

47:41
Yeah.

47:42
I think for me, what I love is tying it to the business strategy.

47:46
And that’s why I try to use that term is it is it’s one thing if you’re like, hey, I want to market this product, I want to market this service.

47:54
But when you take a step back and you try to tie it to the bigger business goals, that’s to me where you can really make a bigger impact and it and that message and that promise and that brand can become that much more authentic.

48:12
Yeah, yes, yeah.

48:24
Even for me, sometimes we get RFPs.

48:27
We’ll get, you know, these requests for proposal.

48:28
And I’m like, that’s just so much of marketing gibberish.

48:31
Like just tell me what you want, tell me who you are, tell me what your problems are, and then let’s talk.

48:38
And it’s, it’s different for every corporation so that, you know, whatever the hot button bingo card word of the week is, they’re throwing it around.

48:46
But some other company is using that term in a very different way.

48:49
So that’s why the, the upfront conversations are so important.

48:52
So it’s not just the the verbiage that’s getting thrown around.

49:17
Yeah, yeah, it can be really difficult when you’re trying to figure out what the cost is.

49:24
Well, and especially there’s certain components like people are like, oh, social media, cool, my cousin’s best friend’s boyfriend’s sister used to do social or you know, or you’ve got somebody that’s like, oh, but they’re 23, they’ll know how to do it.

49:43
And so we see that happen a lot.

49:45
But again, if you’re not taking the time to, to really understand the messaging and what’s putting out, like we have full time social media folks, it’s like they live and breathe it and, and it’s half analytics.

49:56
And so it is really hard for somebody to justify, wait, I’m paying hundred 200 plus dollars an hour for somebody to manage this for me.

50:04
But what we’re doing is we’re managing your reputation.

50:07
We are the voice of the company.

50:09
We are the ones that are building relationships on your behalf.

50:12
We’re your first line of defense.

50:14
And so it’s it’s all in how it’s framed.

50:16
I think overall, yeah, John, couple of things, this is the inevitable AI question.

50:25
A couple of things AI is automating, a couple things AI is replacing, and a couple of things that AI is enhancing in the world of brand marketing.

50:37
Sure.

50:38
I think people hear AI and marketing and just think like, oh, great, now we can just push a button and it’s really affecting the art of storytelling.

50:47
And that’s where when everything gets watered down and it’s generic, that’s where it can be really problematic.

50:54
Where it’s really helpful, especially on the B to B side, is if you are brainstorming topics that you want to write about.

51:00
If you’re going to give a presentation and you’re speaking at an industry event or going to a trade show, you know, what are the topics that are having the biggest impact on this industry today?

51:12
What are the top lists perform really well in those kinds of articles.

51:15
So you know, what are the top 10?

51:18
And I would ask for top 10 or top 20 when I’m writing an article about top five because then I get to pick and use my own perception.

51:25
But you know, what are the top 20 trends that are forecasted to impact this industry tomorrow?

51:31
That’s to me where AI is really strong and powerful.

51:35
Or if I’m brainstorming story ideas or, or I want case studies on out-of-the-box things that can be done so I can make them my own.

51:45
It’s not good enough as a stand alone.

51:48
I think it’s, you know, garbage in, garbage out, right?

51:51
So it’s how do you know how to instruct?

51:53
How do you know what to pull out?

51:54
And you can’t just cut and paste.

51:56
It’s how do you make it your own?

51:57
How do you make it unique and how do you make it authentic to your company?

52:00
And that’s what gets really hard.

52:09
It is really helpful when you can integrate your own materials and so it will better understand like what is the voice of your company?

52:17
If you load in all of your marketing materials, then it’s going to speak like you.

52:20
So there are good elements to it.

52:29
Yes, yeah.

52:43
Just Google and all that.

52:48
And it does have a big impact on on search.

52:50
You know, you used to put something in and it where you came up post ads were based on how relevant your content was, right?

52:58
And so Google has their magical algorithm that changed all the time, but you knew the basics and what you needed to do to be considered the most relevant.

53:05
Now what’s happening is AI is showing up at the top of that, and it’s not necessarily true.

53:11
It’s sometimes absolutely wrong and you start asking it to give sources and it can’t or it will basically just admit like, well, this seemed like it might be right.

53:21
And so I think a lot of it is use it.

53:24
Use it as a thought starter, use it as a research tool, but then validate.

53:29
And that’s really important too.

53:32
Absolutely not.

53:36
Yes.

53:53
It’s hard with a really small budget, so that’s where a lot of times we talk about how they can leverage their expertise because marketing makes them uncomfortable.

54:02
But man, they really know the world of blank.

54:06
And so my, my first client was a consultant in the textile rental services industry.

54:14
He was a client of Sparks for 14 years till he sold his business.

54:18
And you know, when we first started, that was a lot of it.

54:24
I, I actually had a business card with his new logo on it, but said I was Acmo because I would go to trade shows just to help support and I was working out of a coffee shop.

54:34
So it was a doable at the time and you know, it’s, it’s how do you leverage the places they’re comfortable with to make them seem like an expert and then squeeze marketing out of it.

54:47
So that’s it’s a, it’s a hard sell.